The Stack Overflow Podcast

NFT art, Ethereum gas, and a dive into Gemini's data lake

Episode Summary

We chat with Tommy Kimmelman, head of artist relations at Nifty Gateway, and Evan Chipps, lead data analyst at Gemini, and brother of our very own Sara Chipps. Tommy helps us understand how the blockchain is turning the art market upside down, and Evan walks us through the data science at work on a major crypto exchange.

Episode Notes

You can find Tommy on Twitter here and check out his NFT collection here.

Evan tweets his undying love for The Mets here.

Before you lay out your critique of NFTs, here's a great documentary on fraud and forgery in the fine art world. 

Our lifeboat badge winner of the week is Oriol, who answered the question: What is the difference between 'remove' and 'removeChild' method in javascript?

Episode Transcription

Tommy Kimmelman I think it's not going to just like be on a perfect upward path to mainstream adoption. There's going to be ups and downs, but long term I am really, you know, optimistic about the space. And the main reason being is just because like, if you ask someone, if they've heard of an NFT, they might say yes, if you ask them to like, explain what an NFT is, they probably won't know how. So I think there's a big learning curve here. And once you know, the mainstream population really starts to understand NFTs. I think that's when we can, you know, get to mainstream adoption.

[intro music]

Ben Popper Hello everybody. Welcome to the Stack Overflow Podcast, a place to talk about software and technology and programming. And I don't know, whatever is on our mind. I am Ben Popper, Director of Content here at Stack Overflow, and I'm here with my wonderful co-host, Sara. Hi, Sara.

Sara Chipps Hey Ben, how's it going? How are the chickens? 

BP Oh, the chickens are so good, actually. Well, if I'm being honest, we lost three out of the four ducks.

SC Nooo! What happened? Like they ran away?

BP No, I think they were predated. 

SC What does predated mean? 

BP It means that they got eaten. [Sara & Ben laugh]

SC That's a nice way to say that?

BP That's a nice way of saying something got them. Yeah. 

SC Do you have duck predators near you?

BP Yeah, I think it was a bobcat. There's a local Bobcat 

SC Crazy!

BP So it was a you know, the cycle of life continues. We raise the animals, we feed the animals, they feed us and then something feeds on them. I think I should start a substack, like a newsletter. That's about being a technology person who lives in the wilderness. Do you think there's other people like that?

SC Um, would you call it the wilderness? Or? [Sara laughs

BP I'm gonna call it Click Farm.

SC Click Farm! That's great.

BP Click Farm.

SC Yeah, I like that a lot.

BP Sara, for people who don't know, tell them just who you are and what you do at Stack Overflow.

SC I'm Sara Chipps. I'm the Director of Community here at Stack Overflow.

BP  And so you work on our community with our community team and our public platform, right? 

SC Yes. Our 100 million users, so many of them. 

BP We have two wonderful folks joining us today on the podcast and Sara, you know at least one of them very well, you want to introduce? 

SC Yeah, so I've been really getting into this whole NFT thing. Thanks to my brother, Evan. He works at a company called Gemini. They have a product called Nifty Gateway. And so I asked him to come on the show so he can educate other people along with the head of artists relationship safety gateway. Welcome, my brother Evan and Tommy Kimmelman.

Tommy Kimmelman Hey guys.

Evan Chipps Hey Sara and Ben, thanks for having us on!

SC Thanks for coming on. So just for some context, I often have to sit with Ben and our other co host, while they make fun of crypto for a solid half hour. They are not believers. [Ben laughs]

BP No, no, no. Our absent and co host is the real naysayer. 

SC Yeah. Okay, that's true. So it might be helpful. Ben, I don't know if you need a quick primer on NFTs. So maybe Tommy, can you tell us a little bit about what NFTs are?

TK Yeah, definitely. NFYd are a token that exists on the Ethereum blockchain. And it can be used for a lot of different applications, like digital art, in game items. Basically, what they provide is a way to assign value and ownership over a digital item. So yeah, similar to like, if you purchase Bitcoin or Ethereum, what you're really getting is a token, an NF T is similar in that you are getting a token but there's some sort of file or other item attached to it. So with Nifty Gateway, we've built a digital art platform where we take these NFT tokens and assign image files to them created by digital artists and it's pretty cool basically, it just provides a way for you to own a digital item prove that you own it and track ownership on the blockchain. 

BP And so you were saying like in game items, you know, those obviously have had value for a long time if you played like World of Warcraft or something you know, you can you know, trade items, you can farm gold in World of Warcraft to make a living doing that. So this is different because it's it's on a public blockchain as opposed to like, owned and operated by, you know, a single company within their universe?

TK Exactly. Yeah. And honestly, like when I'm explaining NF T's a good analogy or comparison I like to make is like World of Warcraft is a great example. Like, if you had a world of warcraft account and owned a bunch of in game items, and they shut down, their server shut down and they stopped operating, all of those items would essentially be deleted, but with NFTs since they're stored on the blockchain, like there's there's not really any way to delete them they will exist forever on the blockchain. So it's kind of something I've been looking forward to for a long time, like more mainstream games, like maybe World of Warcraft or Fortnite, or a lot of these, these big players who using game items switching to some sort of blockchain to keep all of their in game items on just so they have permanence and even if the game kind of like loses popularity and shuts down or whatever reason, all the end game items live on. So yeah, it's basically like having a profile in game with these items, but someone has the ability to take them away from you is not very secure.

SC That's great. And Evan, how did you get into NFTs? Was it working at Gemini and hearing about Nifty Gateway? Or was it before that? Did you hear about the Top Shot stuff?

EC I think the first time I heard about NFTs was with with Crypto Kitties. I think that was the first thing that became popular and then Nifty Gateway came aboard Gemini, I think over a year ago now probably maybe 18 months. And then the whole team has been working really hard to put together the product that they have now. And it's really been the past like three, four months, the entire NFT space, the Top Ghot and and Nifty Gateway has really blown up. And it's cool to see the the progression because, you know, they kind of always have seen it coming. But this like this meteoric rise. But this past few months have been pretty cool to see. And it's pretty cool to see the next like six months where it's gonna go just more and more people coming into the space and more and more celebrities.

SC Yeah, that's wild. Tommy, you guys get people like The Weeknd and Steve Aoki and deadmau5 and all kinds of, Paris Hilton, I saw the other day. Are they coming to you? Are you finding them? How are you describing this to them as an opportunity?

TK It's been a little bit of both honestly, in the earlier days, it was a grind of like us reaching out to people just because the tech was so unknown. You know, like, we had to really reach out to people hope to get in touch and then explain it to them. And then kind of hope that it clicked and that they wanted to get into this space. Whereas now like, I think there's a lot of education being spread around about NFTs. And there's a lot of eyes on the space right now. So it's more of the other way around now where people do come to us and ask to get on the platform, which is, you know, a blessing and a curse, because there are a ton of really amazing people that we would like to work with. But at the same time, like the demand is so high that we're not able to work with everyone. But yeah, there's definitely a ton of eyes on the space right now. And it's been really unprecedented seeing the amount of big names who are interested in getting involved. 

BP Do you feel like this is a continuation of kind of, you know 'software's eating the world', you know, where like, now we're turning things that once upon a time would have been physical, like a baseball card or you know, a one of a kind vinyl pressing into, you know, a digital artifact, or it's like, hey, everybody can listen to this track. But like one person has something made of code that is now unique and therefore more valuable.

TK Yeah, exactly. I think honestly, like, over the last 10, 15 years, there's just been such a tech and digital boom. And that's going to continue, you know, that's not really going to slow down. And NFTs are, I think, perfect for that just because this concept of owning a digital item is so foreign. But once you get into the space, it really makes sense. And like the technology works, and you are able to own digital items, prove that you own them, show where they originated from and track, it's every move on the blockchain. 

BP Do you think we could talk a little bit about what it's like, you know, from the software development side? I think people who listen to this podcast might be interested to know, if you want to create one of these, what do you have to do? How long does it take? What kind of code are you using? Are there API's involved? Maybe just give us a little primer? Like if I wanted to mention NFT, what would I need to know how to do?

TK Yeah, if you wanted to make a minted NFT a couple years ago would have been a lot more difficult. There weren't really many platforms around allowing you to do it. You kind of just needed to hook up to the Ethereum network and do it yourself. But now there are some platforms out there that allow you to just go in and smooth the process of actually minting an NFT. OpenSea is a really great example. You do have to have a wallet setup. But they have something called lazy minting where they pass off the the minting cost of the token to the person purchasing it like once they purchase it so you don't even need to pay gas costs up front. Super easy to use. Yeah, OpenSea definitely a good place to get started. If you want to just like get your feet wet, learn about the tech and maybe take a stab at minting an NFT. Wearable's another really good platform for that, although they do make you pay for the gas fees. And just to explain the gas fees basically, is the fee that you need to pay to use the Ethereum network which is completely decentralized. So any of these tokens that are being minted or transactions that are occurring on the Ethereum network require these gas fees, basically, as a toll to get those tokens authenticated, have them actually be minted onto the blockchain properly and like have permanence on the blockchain. So that is why like OpenSea though, they like anyone can just go and mint and you don't really need to worry about those gas fees.

SC Did you both see the SNL NFT skit? And when you saw what did you think? Were you like, alright, this is the peak or were you excited that it was a lot more mainstream?

TK Yeah, I mean, I, I thought it was cool to see it kind of like sent some waves through the space. I think, like more than just the SNL skits, the last two months just seeing the amount of people getting involved names that I honestly never thought would get involved or at least not for a very long time. have been getting into the space has just been super cool. SNL obviously when I first saw that I was I was dying laughing. I thought it was really funny. And like, they actually did a pretty good job explaining it. Although I still think most people watching it would have been like, what? What is going on? Yeah, it kind of takes a lot longer than like, two, three minutes to explain. But I thought it was really cool and just kind of a surreal moment seeing someone as big as SNL, like, actively promoting and creating a skit about NFTs.

BP And if we can back up for a second, I've heard a few people mentioned this on some of the finance and tech podcasts and I listen to, it seems like there's now a little bit of friction around this, these these gas fees, people are concerned that right, like you said, like maybe minting something or trying to do something through that network is now becoming prohibitively expensive. In some some cases, you know, you pay a 20% surcharge if you want to miss something associated with certain activities. And I was hearing that okay, well, now other you know, networks and coins and people are going to try to come up with better solutions, or Ethereum should come up with better solution. Is this a software problem? Is this something people are working on trying to figure out like, how can they expand essentially the capacity on the network or lower the fees for people who want to work through that network?

TK Yeah, I mean, it's definitely being worked on. There's a new phase of Ethereum in development called Ethereum 2.0, which is basically just going to ease the amount of traffic on the Ethereum network by expanding it into separate blockchains. Yeah, basically, right now, everything all runs on the Ethereum blockchain. And the reason why gas prices are getting higher is when more people come on to the onto the blockchain and are sending transactions through minting tokens, etc. It really increases the traffic on the network, and it like becomes very congested. Yeah, it takes a longer time for tokens to be minted or transactions to pass through. And when there's a higher demand, the price required to mint these tokens goes up, basically. So yeah, it's actually been a problem in the last week or so. It had been good for like two months before the last week, but lately, it's been spiking a little bit. Yeah, it can cause some problems for us as a platform, honestly, because, you know, anytime we do these drops and release these artworks, we have to mint all the tokens. So.

SC That makes sense. And so when you mint the tokens, who is the cost of that lying on? Is that the purchaser or the or Nifty, or the artist? Who's paying for that initial gas fee?

TK That's Nifty, we take on all of the gas fees. Yeah, as a platform, we've tried to build it out such that you don't really need to have a deep knowledge of NFTs or Ethereum to get involved, and there's no upfront costs. So when we work with an artist, all, all we really do is work with them, get them to submit their artworks, and then we actually handle the minting of the tokens and cover all the gas costs. So there's not really any cost for them. They don't have to worry about like the tech side of actually minting the tokens. It's really just creating the artwork, sending it over to us. And we we ease the transition for them and actually handle everything on the tech side. 

SC Cool!

BP Yeah. Evan, tell us a little about what you do.

EC Yeah, I'm the lead data analyst at Gemini at the analytics team, we kind of handle all the internal product reporting all the regulatory reporting that comes with the with a crypto company, as well as any of the kind of data questions that come up with the with the org, whether customer onboarding problems or or trying to optimize a certain product. So it's pretty, pretty horizontal function and team.

SC How much of an overlap is there between—and I don't know, this is something that both of you observe—between the community at Gemini like the the people that are using the Gemini app and the community on Nifty Gateway? Is it, is there a big overlap? Is it completely different people?

EC Yeah, well, there's there's a bifurcation between the two apps, but there is I don't know the exact percentage, but that there is some overlap and usage between Nifty and Gemini. And maybe in the I think in the future, there's talks of trying to make it a little easier, going from maybe one to the other.

BP So I downloaded Gemini, yeah, this is a very self-promotional circular podcast. 

SC Ben is gonna ask you an important question now. [Sara laughs]

BP Yeah. I downloaded it. And the thing that really blows me away as a former sort of like tech and business writer, is, it feels like the world of cryptocurrency has gotten so big and and sort of gaining so much momentum, that finance now feels like, oh, we've got to follow like, we can't, we can't miss out on this. We already missed out. I mean, Coinbase went public, they did a direct listing, you know, the banks are nowhere that all the exchanges don't don't don't offer crypto. And so there's now a lot of big institutions and pension funds and banks that are trying to buy into this world, but they are held back by laws and regulations. So on Gemini, I can go on, I can buy a stable coin that's pegged to the US dollar, so it stays around roughly $1. I mean, you know, the smart contracts not perfect, but more or less, and then it pays me 7.4% interest, which is just bananas. I mean, to put that in perspective, I can't get 1% interest on my money from Goldman Sachs and Chase Bank and you name it, I mean, nothing like that. So I guess I'm curious, like, what do you attribute that that huge difference to? Like where is that edge that crypto has over traditional finance coming from? Because as a consumer, it's kind of I mean, it's it's, I guess it's wonderful. It's the only place that I know to get that kind of return these days.

EC Yeah. I'm also in the spirit of self promotion, I'm also leveraging Gemini earn my funds. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, to give give background on that, on that 7.4%, we partner with a company called Genesis, and they will lend, you know the crypto that you have, and they will make APR on that, and then pay based fraction. But in terms of why there's such a disparity between the kind of crypto lending and traditional banking lending. I don't know all the answers. I know, specifically, supply and demand. But like, it seems like there is just a big demand right now. And that's why you see different crypto assets having different APY, there'll be different levels of demand. So that's kind of the the supply and demand aspect, I think, is the is the root of it. In terms of like why there's such a disparity, I'm not sure. I don't know if there's some efficiencies to be had, in traditional banking, or, or what have you. But yeah.


BP So if you're listening to the podcast, you probably work in software, or know someone who does, they can now check out Stack Overflow for Teams. That's a private internal instance of Stack Overflow just for your company or organization, your group of friends learning to code, you can share questions and answers, build up a great database knowledge that makes it easier for people to solve their own problems, you just search, find a solution, leave an answer. That way, everybody in your Stack Overflow for Teams instance, can collaborate remotely. And asynchronously, you get up to 50 seats for free forever. So you can try it out, see if you like it. Head on over to, and tell them the podcast folks sent ya. 


BP And so I guess Evan, did you and Sara grow up together? And did you learn data science and computers together? Were you guys competing on like SNES or how did you two both end up in this world of technology?

EC Yeah, well, Sara says my older sister, she got into, I guess you could say, engineering computer science space first. And I kind of I mean, as a sort of a lot of people I like to math and sciences and kind of followed in the footsteps of data science, or took the computer science classes in high school and, and went to school for computer engineering. And then this went into the data aspect. I had a data role previous to Gemini, and then got more into the data analytic side at Gemini, and kind of really loved being in the space and wanting to solve data problems. 

BP And so what you know, like languages and frameworks works, do you use? You Python or R like, what do you play around with on the data side these days?

EC Yeah, so we have our kind of data lake we have at Gemini, we use snowflake. So there's a lot of different data sources, from our internal databases to vendors that we use, we pipe into snowflake. And then we'll do ELT within snowflake to, to build dimensional models. And then we'll report on these dimensional models and Looker will report to the business, different business functions on different reports and dashboards. And we're leveraging a cool tool called Data Bricks to spin up some data science models, things like LTV, different turn analysis. Yeah, so that's that's overview of the of the tech stack we're using right now.

SC So back to NFTs, Evan and Tommy, what are your favorite NFTs that you own?

TK That is a good question.

EC Yeah.

TK Let me pull up my profile here. I've got a lot. Yeah, I don't like picking to any favorites just because all the artists I work with, I really love their work. But yeah, off the top of my head, I own a piece from Pak, from one of his earliest drops on Nifty Gateway. He recently did a really big drop with Sotheby's that was super successful and he's just kind of been an innovator in this space. Definitely one of my favorite pieces. I own some of Steven Baltay's earliest work, he was one of the first big digital artists to really take a chance on Nifty Gateway and the NFT space so definitely rewarded him. I mean, he's an OG with us and he's had a lot of successful drops. So definitely loves some of the early stuff I own from him. See what else I own a piece from Bill Ellis really really really talented digital artists. Yeah, love his work and also in a piece by Victor Mosquera from his first drop that he did with us he's kind of had a meteoric rise over the last like six months so definitely happy that I got to grab one of his earliest pieces. 

BP Do you have like a, you have like a public profile? Like if I wanted to see, oh, what does Tommy you know, collect or own? If I hop in there, do I see this collection that you're kind of relating to us now?

TK Yeah, definitely. It's Those are all the artworks that I own on Nifty. I also do buy some artworks on other platforms as well. Superare is one of my favorites. Definitely love some of the artists that they have on there. They just have a great platform in general. And yeah, those are those are kind of the two main ones. Obviously, I'm biased towards buying on Nifty but yeah, superare is one I dabble with.

EC And I think I have a little bit more of a modest collection thanTommy, but I'll say for my favorites. I think my first the first one I bought, I think I'm kind of sentimental value the gold word tigs. I think that's that's one of my favorites. And then the other one I've ferocious drip. And I always think that's like the coolest thing I have and probably cooler than I am. Probably cooler than I am you just kind of Bob's his head and twirls around. So yeah, those are probably sort of the favorites from my collection.

BP We were talking a while back about Electric Objects, which is a great Kickstarter. A like New York startup that kind of tried to do a way to have digital art live on your walls. Does this stuff live IRL for either of you? Like do you display it in your home? Or on your background in your computer? Or like on a on a screen? Or does it is does it just live sort of like in the digital space of here's my profile, you know, if you're looking at me on Twitter, and you go and check out my profile, now you know what I've got?

TK I'd say for me, like 99% of my stuff just lives on my profile, I do have a few digital tablet displays from a company called Infinite Objects who we work with. And they're they're pretty small, they like fit on your desk. They're around like eight and a half inches by five and a half inches. But super cool. And I have I believe three of them, definitely trying to get some more over the next couple months. They're actually pretty cheap. And it's like a cool and easy way to display the artwork without having to do like a full TV setup or something like that.

SC Yeah, those are really cool. I didn't know those existed. I was like someone needs to make one of those. And now, I found those Infinite Objects, and they're really neat. 

BP Alright, well, let me continue to be sort of the naysayer and just just poke holes at this.

SC Everyone needs that. Everyone loves that.

BP Everyone needs that.  But I saw stories of artists saying like, well, people were just grabbing art off the internet, you know, minting it and then selling it. They didn't actually own you know, the underlying asset or the copyright. I'm sure, you know, Nifty Gateway does does work to you know, prevent that sort of stuff through its own auctions. But in sort of the broader web, you know, like, what is helping to ensure that tokenizing things is done in sort of like a legitimate way. And that, you know, the original creator is the one who kind of gets to have control over that.

TK Yeah, I think it's tough, because technically, any artists could attempt doing this, I would say one thing that really, really helps us is just the fact that we curate very heavily, we're really selective that we work with. So if a situation like that ever were to arise, it would have to be an artist to have been doing it for a very long time. And kind of like, It slipped through the cracks, and they got away with it and built a career around it, which doesn't happen often. So yeah, I would say like curation is definitely our biggest tool against that. But that being said, it can't happen every now and then. And it's unfortunate when it does, but same thing can be said for the the fine art world, you know, so we definitely keep an eye out for it. And we try to do as much betting as possible.

BP Yeah, I guess that's true. There is a lot of, there's a lot of fake art out there.

SC There's a lot of fake art out there. I think there was recently a really great documentary about it that I will find a link to Netflix and the only thing I thought about the whole time I was watching it was just like NFTs fix this whole thing. Like the fix the whole thing of the idea of, you know, not really knowing what an artist did in their lifetime having several sources to verify, but it turns out all those sources could be faked or fooled and things like that. And it can be kind of a domino effect. But that's the cool thing about the blockchain. 

BP Evan, Tommy, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about like, where you think we are, you know, whether the value of this stuff the currency or the art, you know, has run a little bit ahead of the reality of, you know, the, you know, what people are getting out of this, if that is to say there's a little bit of a bubble, or if you think, you know, we're just in the first inning of a much much bigger transformation here?

EC Yeah, I think when you look at how many people are in the space now, I think if you see some of the charts that float around Twitter of how many people are in the space now compared to maybe six months ago, where the volume in the space like some of the artworks are worth a lot of money. I mean, you saw the the people artwork went went a lot for $69 million. I think we are super early. That being said, there might be some some of the pieces they might be be selling for a lot and there might be that natural fluctuation. But that's something similar happened with with Bitcoin three years ago, where more people started to get into the space and start to be a little run up and then just a natural little bit of a recession back to the the curve. So I think there might be like a little bit of a run up. But in turn, when you look at the amount of people in the space now and then coupled with the publicity it's getting, I think we're super early. And I think over the next like 6, 12 months, we'll just see like more growth in the space. That being said, there might be certain like pieces that will come back down down to Earth or like, other value. But then again, like, if you if you own some of these pieces by these kind of OG artists like down the road, like they might, they might have a maybe a recession over a couple of months. But a couple of years. If you own one of these, like Pak pieces or people pieces, you'd be like, an NFT OG there.

BP Collectibles, art and finance seem to be the places where the blockchain and crypto are getting very hot with a lot of interest, a lot of companies, many developers going to work at these places. Do you see other other areas where there's, you know, utility? Or do you think we're gonna have like, mainstream, you know, in the sense of like, on one out of every four smartphone kind of crypto stuff in the near future? Or do you think we're sort of like still in a build phase and maybe need another five or 10 years to get to mainstream adoption, kind of like we did with the early internet? Like it was hot, you know, everybody who, who was interested, you know, we're starting a website and a web company in 1994. And then the bottom kind of fell out. I'm curious what you think?

TK Yeah, I think I think the markets really going to come and go and waves, I don't think it's going to just be like a steady growth upwards and upwards until we reach a plateau. I think it's gonna be really big spikes up, and then kind of spikes down. And that's kind of what we've been seeing for the last year and a half. And I think it's going to continue that way. And like, yeah, right now, we are in a little bit of a downtrend after seeing like, astonishing meteoric growth over the last two, three months. So I think it's not going to just like be on a perfect upward path to mainstream adoption, there's going to be ups and downs, but long term, I am really, you know, optimistic about the space. And the main reason being is just because like, if you ask someone, if they've heard of an NFT, they might say, yes, if you ask them to, like, explain what an NFT is, they probably won't know how. So I think there's a big learning curve here. And once you know, the mainstream population really starts to understand NFTs I think that's when we can you know, get to mainstream adoption.

BP Evan, what about you?

EC Yeah, I think was some of the finance stuff especially I think, when I kind of joined them now like three years ago we're we're basically a crypto exchange like you bought and sold Bitcoin Ehthereum on Gemini now Gemini along with a few other companies, you kind of have a suite of banking products. Now you have you have a savings account with Gemini or you can there's a credit card waitlist, you can have a Gemini credit card there's they're staking in the space, there's lending. There's like a lot of all the explosion with DeFi as well just been like separate from the NFT explosion. There's a lot of just like decentralized finance and, and taking taking the funds out of the banks and being your own banker, so to speak, you know, the thing that sticks out is you hear things that happen like early on space with crypto or maybe less regulated exchanges, like losing a bunch of customer funds. So people maybe aren't as apt to put a good chunk of their—

BP I remember Mt. Gox. Yeah.

EC Mt. Gox. And then so people, you know, are less apt, they might trust a Chase savings account more than more than putting their funds on Coinbase or Gemini. But I think with the there's that learning curve, like similar learning curve, with the crypto space with NFT's like people, people know, people have heard of Bitcoin have heard of NFT's more so now, but I think they're just starting to really learn how it works. And I think that'll just increase adoption as we move on.


BP Alright, everybody, it is that special time of the episode, we are going to shout out the winner of a lifeboat badge award. Lifeboat badge on Stack Overflow means you came in and took a question with a score of negative three or less, and you gave an answer that got to a score of 20 or more. So thanks for coming in and saving some knowledge helping us spread it around the internet. Today's award goes to Oriel. And the question is "What is the difference between 'remove' and 'removeChild' method in javascript?" So thanks, Oriel, and we will share that in the show notes if you're curious to find out. I'm Ben Popper, Director of Content here at Stack Overflow. You can always find me on Twitter @BenPopper. And you can always email us

SC And I'm Sara Chipps, Director of Community here at Stack Overflow. You can find me on GitHub @SaraJo. Tommy, who are you and where can people find you on the internet if you want them to?

TK Oh yeah, I definitely want them to. I'm Tommy Kimmelman, head of Artist Relations at Nifty Gateway. You can find me on Twitter @TommyKimmelman.

SC If people are out there because we have a lot of people that listen that might not have an NFT, where would you tell them to get started? Go check out the drops on Nifty?

TK Yeah, definitely check out the drops on Nifty Gateway.

SC Awesome. And Evan, who are you and where can we find you? I know where to find you. [Evan laughs]

EC I am Evan Chipps. I'm the lead Data Analyst at Gemini and you can find me at Twitter @evan_chippz.

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