The Stack Overflow Podcast

Are developers helping to drive the Great Resignation?

Episode Summary

Cassidy recently joined the Great Resignation, leaving one job for another, a move prompted by pandemic era reflection and the new normal of remote work...without travel. Ceora took the opposite trajectory, moving into tech after the pandemic shuttered a job in events. On today's episode we talk about how this unique moment in the history of labor is playing out for developers and those in the tech industry.

Episode Notes

Developers are leading the Great Resignation, according to some reports. Others feel developers aren't resigning, so much as seizing the moment to find better opportunities. 

You can find out hosts online at the links below





Have an experience with the Great Resignation you want to share with our podcast and blog? Hit us up by email:


Pitches for the blog

Thanks to our lifeboat badge winner of the week, Umer, for explaining how to: align an anchor to the right

Episode Transcription

Ben Popper I remember the first week we had like a huge backyard with a trail and a fire pit and stuff. And I was like, I had been living in a prison of my own design. [Cassidy laughs] 1000 square feet apartment, with one bathroom and two children. Like why? Why was I doing that?

[intro music]

BP Hello, everybody, welcome to the Stack Overflow Podcast, a place to talk about all things software and technology. I am Ben Popper, Director of Content Marketing here at Stack Overflow. And I'm joined, as I so often am, by my wonderful co-hosts, Cassidy, Cora and Ryan. Hi, everybody. 

CW Hello!

CF Hi!

Ryan Donovan Hi Ben!

BP So we have a topic for today that we're going to discuss, the great resignation, which is bigger than just software and technology. You know, the pandemic changed many people's lives and a lot of dramatic ways, changed society and the economy. And one of the interesting sort of knock on effects has been, people had time to reflect or they've built up savings. And they feel like they want to quit their job that they've been at for a while or take a step back and think about their career. And so this has been labeled a great resignation, just there's plenty of jobs available, but some people choose not to take them. So but I guess this gives us the chance to do a little bit of housekeeping as well, internally. Cassidy, you recently changed roles. You want to tell us about that?

CW Yeah. And so I am a part of the problem, I guess. [Ceora & Ryan laugh]

BP You are one of the great resigners.

CW I am officially one of the great resigners, I resigned from my role at Netlify. And then, after talking with them, they asked if I could stay on as an advisor, which was a fun concept, because I've been interested in advising startups lately. So it worked out in general. So I like both left and didn't leave because of not doing anything full time with them anymore. And it was definitely a bittersweet choice. And it kind of was a bit of a pandemic move where I actually joined Netlify, at the beginning of the pandemic in general, I was teaching with a company called React Training before the pandemic, traveling all over the place. And so as you can imagine, travel was not big in the pandemic. 

CF Yeah...

BP You and Ceroa have similar stories there. Right? You're both we're doing like in person trainings and events at the beginning

CW Yeah. It was a very fun time and truly traveling a ton. Like I think in January 2020, I was only home for one weekend. And in February of 2020, I was in cool places like Hawaii and Paris. And then from Paris, I went straight to Ireland, and I was in Ireland through the beginning of March. And then I was going to be home for three days, then go to Spain and then teach a couple workshops and speak at a conference. And just I think it was the night before my flight, everything was canceled. And then a week later, I was laid off and the entire company was laid off. Because we just lost all of our business overnight. Yeah, it just kind of rapidly went downhill from there where every single thing was canceled. And anyway, the lovely folks had Netlify ended up hiring me, I went on a rabid interviewing spree. And I really enjoyed my time there. I was doing a lot of dev advocacy, which sewer you do dev advocacy, you know what that role generally entails? Yeah, lots of speaking, lots of podcasts, blog posts, all that jazz. And kind of just, I slowly started to kind of assess where I wanted to go with my job. And I think that's where the common storylines with all the great resignation, things where people are starting to realize, okay, well, we don't know what the future is going to hold. There's so many things that we had plans for, but plans aren't real half the time because you make them and then suddenly, things get canceled. And so I moved across the country to Chicago, I started doing more stuff with Stack Overflow, because I like y'all. And there's just various things that started happening. And I started to realize I wanted to get back into education. And so I'm figuring out what all that looks like. But I'm taking December off to talk with a few different places and finalize what that'll look like. 

CF Yeah, I think your story mirrors a lot of other people's like, obviously, since this, this whole movement has like a title now, the great resignation. I've seen so many engineers, and I'll speak to the tech industry specifically because like was mentioned, I think this is happening across like industries, but we're in software. So we'll talk about that. I've seen a lot of people who have been moving to different roles sometimes, like go from software engineer to developer advocacy, or vice versa, moving companies, all that kind of stuff. And I think there are a lot of reasons behind it. I have like a few thoughts here. I think that a lot of people are taking more time to like you did Cassidy, to think about like what do I actually want to do? Where do I want to be? And does where I'm at right now match that? And I think another thing too, which is interesting is that a lot of people are realizing that the best way for you to jump in salary is to sometimes move to a new company. 

RD A lot of times, that's true. 

CF Yeah, I've heard a lot of people talk about, like, oh, I asked for a raise, like a 15k raise. And they didn't want to give it to me. So I moved to another company and I got a 55k raise. I just literally saw that on Twitter yesterday. And I've seen that happen a lot. And I think it's really interesting to see people realize, especially in software, since like, a lot of roles are really in demand now, despite like, you know, a year ago, there was like a very slow period now. Now everywhere is hiring, people are like taking advantage of that. And I like to see that people are like making work work for them, making sure that they're as happy as possible. If you have to work to try to make sure that their roles fit them and that the salary fits them. And that all that everything is the way they want it to be, which I really like to see. Because I think is great to be satisfied with where you're at. Like, I think we have this idea that you have to like, I have to be relatively dissatisfied with my job, right? Like, which is true to a certain degree, because some people just prefer not to work. But yeah, I think you can now with the way things are the way the industry is looking is nice, because it's like more power to the people, you know. And I'm all about that. 

RD I also think there's, there's a whole culture around tech, of building up this this office environment where you stay there forever, like you had your, you know, your lunches, your cake in the break room, you just had this environment where like, yeah, we're like, you were there all the time. And that was your life. And it was great. And now we're working from home, and we don't have those perks and we're like, oh, wait. This isn't the job I want to be doing.

CF It's like when you take all the fun amenities away, it's like, oh, I don't know if I really liked this job.

BP Exactly. Now it's just spreadsheets.

CW I was talking to a friend of mine. And he was saying, you know, I like my job. But I don't get to go into the fun office anymore, just like you're saying. And so maybe I do want to switch to a different kind of role. Maybe I do want to try something like dev advocacy instead of software engineering or things like that. And he didn't realize how many people were just hiring. And I said, okay, let me tweet on your behalf. I'll just say, hey, a friend of mine is looking for a gig, we'll see who comes up. And he had like five interviews in two days, he signed a new offer that week, like he asked me on Tuesday, and he had a job by Friday. It's wild, how fast people are hiring.

BP I do feel like that's part of why people feel like they can take risks, you know, especially in the world of software development, like I could walk away for two weeks, I could walk away for a month. And when I want a job, I can find one as fast as I need to. And I know the pay will be at a level where you know, I can be comfortable. Or maybe like you said Ceora, this is even a chance to level up, you know, because people the demand for hiring is so high. And I guess like one thing I do want to, you know, say just in this context is like, we're talking about software development. We're not trying to ignore the rest of society in the economy, other people may need to work for certain reasons. But I think we are at a pretty unique moment in history in the United States where like jobs where the minimum wage didn't change for 20 years, and it was sort of like, well, you either need to take this job or not, are now significantly raising their wages, adding on benefits, paid vacation, sick leave, education. Even in that realm, I've heard you know, people who used to work in restaurants and hospitality and warehouses feel empowered to say, you need to give me a lot more, I'm not coming to work, or, you know, I've saved up enough during the pandemic to sit back for a few months and decide, you know, which offer I want or go back to education. So it's pretty interesting sort of like moment that the pandemic has brought us to.

RD Everybody being stuck inside give us a lot of time to think. Everybody got real introspective, and was like, is this the life I want? If I'm stuck inside forever, fo I want to be doing this?

CW It also put a magnifying glass on like company communication and stuff and how people work together and everything? Because what else are you going to do except for work? What else are you going to do except be indoors and listen to Zoom meetings and everything. And people started to realize we're actually not that good at that are we or we can't handle this remote work and I want to stay a remote worker. There's all kinds of things that you can assess by just being forced to.

CF Most companies being forced to go remote, I think also put a magnifying glass on like poor management. Like a lot of people don't know how to manage a team without being able to look over your shoulder and like see what you're doing, which I guess be to like lack of communication as well. And when you don't have a good manager, or even worse, when you have a really bad manager, it makes your life miserable. When you have opportunities to like move somewhere else where when everyone is hiring, and they sometimes have better salaries and better benefits. Why not move? You know what I mean? Like and then another thing I've seen a lot of companies are trying to like go back remote. And a lot of people really enjoy being remote. Some people don't, but a lot of people enjoy it. They get to spend time with their kids. You get to like in the middle of the day, go for a quick trip, go for a quick run and all that kind of good stuff without having to like, totally derail your work. People enjoy that. And when your job is like, oh, no, we want to go back, we want to go back into the office when everything has worked fine remotely, it's like, why would I do that? 

BP I think there was also in some places there was this realization of like, oh, these remote tools work really well. And actually, like, most of these middle managers are unnecessary, like, really need these people who like whose job is like, organize the stand ups and like, kind of say, good job or bad job. But like, basically, if we have our tasks and our deadlines, and we're hitting them, and some places, for better or worse, you know, maybe it was, people were working too much, saw productivity go up, especially software driven places during the pandemic, because people were just keyed in, they weren't playing ping pong, they weren't commuting, they weren't taking an hour lunch, they were just like, I'm gonna do my work. And then I'm gonna have my time. And so productivity actually went up.

RD I think there's a interesting shift in management to remember, you know, it probably 10 plus years ago, there's sort of a defensive management, right? You had to keep your employees in line, you had to make sure they weren't screwing off or doing bad stuff. And now it's all about enabling them to do better, and you kind of need less of those guardians, those gatekeepers, if everybody's just being enabled, and there's nothing to defend.

CF I think there's a big focus now on like, keeping your employees happy. Because it's like, oh, well, when my employees are happy, and they're not burnt out, they actually do better work. Like, I've heard a few people here and there, this is not as popular as like the whole remote culture thing. But a lot of people have been talking about, we need a four day workweek, they're trying to, like take this really far. And I've seen a few people who have tried the four day work week, maybe in the summertime, or whatever. And they say that like the productivity matched the five day work week, or was higher, because when you have more time to rest, and when you're happier, and you you know, get to recharge more, you have more energy when you do your actual work. So I think it's really interesting to see like, people are realizing like, oh, wow, what a coinkidink that like when my employees are happy and satisfied, and they are well rested, they actually are better at their job. 

CW What a concept. We actually did that experiment this past summer on my team as well. And yet the four day work weeks, we were just as productive, if not more so. And we're just like, why wouldn't you do this?

BP And I guess, yeah, like kind of like revealed, if you were to look at an average work week for me in digital media as a journalist, or then at Stack Overflow and developers like, viewer to count the number of hours I was working, working, versus talking to someone else's office playing ping pong, commuting, whatever, it was probably a three or four day work week, like, you know, once you're not doing all that other stuff. You're just being honest about how much time you were working per week. Like I see people working all the time. They're at their desk, they're working, but I just see them on Twitter. But I know he says you're working, but I just see you joking and having fun on Twitter. So like, obviously, you're not working, you know, like, it's kind of like that, you know, once you're like living this digital work life, if you just tried to buckle down and compress the work hours, it's like 20, 30 hours a week, at the most.

CF Yeah, I saw someone say like in May on Twitter, they were like, I have a confession to make, I only work about five or six hours a day. And everyone was like so do we, like that's what everyone else is doing. Like this is not a bad thing, you know, because when you really do condense it and you take out all the like, oh, I'm doing a chat with this person at their desk, and the commute and all that kind of stuff, it really does come down to like, five or six productive hours of work a day.

CW My husband actually had a manager that said that to him once like before the pandemic where he was saying, you know, I considered it a successful day, if I can get five hours of work out of someone, because I know that it's not realistic to do eight. But this is the world that we live in. And it kind of changed me because I was just like, wait, that's actually true, though. If you think about all the time that you spend context switching and jumping between things, and kind of goofing off sometimes, it's very real.

RD Some of that, you know, like you said, it's context switching, but I think there is some value to that recharge, goofing off, that kind of diffuse thinking where you're off browsing Twitter, and you might go alright, I just solved the problem by letting my brain relax, right? And look at memes.

CW Memes are great for productivity.

BP Memes solve problems. 

CF Exactly. Exactly. And I think that all ties into like, when you have more time to rest and recharge, like you end up being better at your job. Because when you're on all the time, I don't think we're meant to do that I don't think we're meant to like actually solve problems in working code, because this is like, not easy work. Right? Like, I don't think anyone's job is necessarily easy. But when you have to, like solve these problems, and think of like ways to either fix a problem in code or fix a problem with infrastructure, whatever the case may be, like, you have to give your brain some time to do work in the background. Like you can't just be on for eight hours straight like that, to me is just I know I can't function. And when I've had jobs where I had to, I didn't last long there.

BP I've heard a lot of developers even internally say similar to what Cassidy you know, that manager which is like, realistically, you shouldn't spend more than four or five, six hours a day writing code and spend that other time talking to people talking to a manager direct report or like you said, putting your brain into a space where it can like try to solve a problem. Like even just like yeah, meditation, like an hour a day of that is like, as worthwhile as trying to jam in an extra three hours of coding when you're just feeling frustrated, right. 


BP Tired of egregious egress? Vultr is ready to save us all time, money and hassle by providing powerful cloud compute at a fraction of the cost of big tech. Visit to redeem $100 in credit today.


CW And I will say remote working is different in and outside of a pandemic. And so I'm very curious to see which things will stick around and which things won't. Because I was working remotely before the pandemic, I've been working remotely since 2018, or so like mid 2018. And I immediately saw a productivity boost just going to work remotely because I wasn't gabbing in the office because I will talk your ear off if you let me. Once you're in the pandemic, there's nowhere else to go and nothing else to do except work. Like before I was able to go work from the library or go work from cafes, and then at the end of the day, go and meet up with friends very easily without masks and kind of have a normal schedule working out. And that's simply not the case. You can't just easily go to these different locations, you might need an appointment or you might need to go in and out. Or you might not be able to see your friends because everybody's are moved away or just can't meet up necessarily. And granted, I do think we're getting better in general at that now that we know more and more people are vaccinated and stuff. But it's still not the same as what remote work was before the pandemic.

CW Yeah, have you heard this term? They call it living at work. Because this basically what we're doing now working from home, like, especially during the pandemic, you basically are living at work because there's nothing like you said, there's sometimes nothing else to do. I think that people are starting to get better at managing that now. But it is still like something to watch out for definitely.

BP I was talking to a company, we were discussing whether or not their office would be open, whether or not people will be visiting whatever, whatever. And he said, Well, actually, our facilities team had to go in and remove somebody who started sleeping at the office to get away. Anyway, he was like, went back and was like he was the only person there was just like, had camped out in the office all by himself and was enjoying the freedom and the peace and quiet.

RD Hey, I get it.

CF Especially when you live in like a fairly large city where living spaces are relatively small. That becomes a real reality. I have been like a staunch like city girl forever, like, oh, no, I would never live in the suburbs. I can't take rural areas, all that kind of stuff until the pandemic happened. And I was like, it would really be nice to have a backyard. 

BP Oh my god. You have no idea.

CF It finally clicked for me. I was like, Oh, is this why people do that? Okay, I understand. 

RD I'm gonna be home all the time, I want my home to be spacious. 

BP I left our house on March 15. Because Stack Overflow went remote on March 9, and my wife knew 24 hours before like the public that the schools are going to close because she was a teacher. So I was like, schools are gonna close. We're like, let's just get out of here, this last two or three weeks, and then we'll come home. So we got an Airbnb. And I remember the first week we had like a huge backyard with a trail and a fire pit and stuff. And I was like, I had been living in a prison of my own design. A 1000 foot apartment with one bathroom and two children like why? Why was I doing that? But like you I was like, I'm a city person I've like looked down with scorn on people who moved to the suburbs. And as soon as I did, I was like, oh, I get it. Like, yeah, like, this is so much nicer when you have, you know, a need for the space. It wasn't just like me, it was like, we were like trying to cram all these people into this tiny little apartment.

CF  would be going for walks. And there would be people everywhere. Like, I can't get away from people here. You know what I mean? Like, that's why I was like, oh, now I get why people want to have like their own yard so that they can walk around and just feed them in their own property. You know, because if I go for a walk, if I go to a trail now, there's gonna be a bunch of other people. And some of them are wearing masks and all that kind of stuff. And sometimes, you just don't want to be around anyone. And when you live in a big city with people everywhere, you can't do that.

RD Early pandemic, my dad was like, go on walks, go take walks, and it's like, there's all these disease vectors around why I can't do that.

CW Well, and again, that's why people have been going to more affordable areas too, because they can work remotely and work from anywhere. So why would they be right next to the office in a small cube prison of their own design, as you say, Ben. We were living in a pretty small space, relatively small space out in Seattle before and we were close to my husband's office at Microsoft. I was able to work from home just fine, generally, but then once he had to work remotely, we were just like, oh, we don't have enough space for this. Like we would have to figure out whose turn it was to be in The Living Room constantly throughout the day because we had to take meetings, and then we moved out to Chicago and it's closer to family, we're able to have a house that is double the size of what we had in Seattle for the same amount of money. It just makes sense.

BP I guess like one thing that comes to my mind. I'm curious to know if any of you have experienced this, is that I do see at least some companies, specifically Meta being like, look, you know, this is all great, and there's gonna be this hybrid life. And the way some of this is going to be solved in the future is like people meeting in VR and AR. Do any of you know anyone who's actually doing that? Because like, to me, it sounds interesting, but I have not really met anybody yet who's like yet we're doing the VR meetings. And man, it's just like being in the office.

CW My sister literally works on VR at Meta. They are not doing meetings in it. The concepts, the concept is there. I think they've I think they've tried it a little bit, but she's just like, it's not quite there yet. The whole Metaverse thing is something that sure we'll look at, but I don't think that's happening for real anytime soon.

CF I've heard of people talking about like Metaverse, concerts, not necessarily like for work and stuff like that. But for like other events like oh, yeah, I'm going to go to like this concert. And instead of like us all trying to make it to the wherever the location is, let's just do it in the Metaverse. I don't know if anyone has actually done that.

BP I've done them. And I guess like the performance is cool. But again, you can't like look over at your friend and like, give them a nudge and like you don't smell, like when you go to a concert, you have that energy. And then you take the headset off. And it's just like you alone in a dark living room and like you know, your dogs, like just like, you know, it's easy to be broken out of, you know, like you have the headset on you're at the things like this is pretty cool. But it's pretty easy to break that fantasy. You don't say like really immersed in it. And also you're pretty much by yourself. And that was my experience. Like nobody was at the concert with me.

RD There's investment coming. Epic who owns Fortnite just bought Harmonics, who does Rock Band.

BP And they've done great concerts in Fortnite that were awesome.

CW Yeah, I was going to say like, like the Ariana Grande concert in fortnight this past year. That was pretty neat. Granted, it wasn't in VR in the metaverse or anything. But if you're on voice chat with your friends, and you're just jumping around, you're just like, dang, that's pretty neat. That's probably been the most effective virtual concerts that I've seen where it doesn't feel like you're just watching a YouTube video.

CF And it is really cool. See, but I don't know if we should take the metaverse of that for I don't know, it feels very dystopian to me. They're like, yeah, nobody wants to see each other in person anymore. We do everything by ourselves, which I don't know.

BP Have any of you seen this new Netflix special called Inside with Bo Burnham?

CW Yes, watched the whole thing.

BP It's a little like, I definitely would say like, there's some trigger warnings probably in there about like mental health and isolation and stuff like that. But it's amazing.

CW It's a work of art.

BP Yeah, it's a real brilliant work of art. And a lot of it is about like, being inside being online, too much. Being inside an online and alone too much and trying to like make comedy and art within that sort of sphere.

CF I'll definitely check that out. I will say I feel like the one thing about like, remote work and all this kind of stuff is that I think it's made a lot of people realize that like, wow, I really do like in person stuff. Like you can't beat being at a concert in person. Like I've seen a few artists try to like do virtual stuff, or you just can't beat like doing certain things in person. And I get that some people do like to be at home, but still, it's just not the same. Like, that's why I feel like, you know, Metaverse stuff. It could be useful, but I think a lot of people are realizing like I do like to go to the mall sometimes. I do like to do in person stuff. Sometimes like sure online shopping, or whatever Metaverse stuff could be cool. But it's something about actually experiencing things in person that's a little...

BP I get that the metaverse and that technology is coming. But it's just like in this moment in time, we all want less screens and more IRS we were denied it for like 18 months like before it you know, I was at The Verge I was like VR is cool. And I tried and it was awesome, immersive room, the whole thing. It's like right now, when my whole day is video calls, like I don't want to put a screen on my face. Like that's the opposite of what do you know? I just want to bring up one thing, because you're you had mentioned the four day workweek, just to get an interesting take. I guess the one thing that sticks out to me that's interesting that software developers, people in our industry will kind of have to consider is, I think we've already arrived at the point where a lot of people in software feel so empowered, I can leave this job and I'll get another job in a week. If I tweet, you know, I'm gonna there's gonna be five job hours. So if I go get a Ryan and I were doing a podcast, I could go get a Google Cloud or an AWS certificate in six months. And then I can walk into a job that pays 170 grand, like that is something I can do you know, when I choose to and afford a work week, you know, a lot of software companies will begin to experiment with that, or effectively you have the flex time where you can make it that if you want that. So what happens I guess to the rest of society? You know, like if then software developers like yep, software developers and knowledge workers get a four day workweek and they get incredible benefits and pay, you know, people now luckily, the hourly wages are going up for a lot of stuff, but it's like if you're a teacher Are you working in a restaurant, like you can't not be there and do the work or like, for a lot of jobs like that, your physical presence, your body is like part of the work. So I wonder how that will play out in society.

RD I think they just hire more people.

BP Pay people more, hire more, and less time?

CF I feel like this also creates a weird like hierarchy a little bit. I know sometimes I'll talk to family members who work in retail or they're teachers or they're daycare workers or whatever. And they're talking about, oh, I have to basically risk my life every day, and make sure that I don't get COVID. And I'm over here, like, oh, I work from home. And, you know, I never have to work weekends or evenings. And it does feel weird. It does create this weird, like dynamic, which I think a lot of people in tech aren't even aware of. Like, if all your friends and family members are doing something in the tech industry, you wouldn't even be aware of what it's like for other people. So I do think it creates this weird thing. And I hear a lot of people on Twitter who complain about how bad things are in tech. And I do think like the tech industry has some work to do. But it is at the same time like we are in a much better position than other people. Like I recently quit a job and started a new one. And like, I didn't really think too much about like the repercussions for my career. I have an aunt she does accounting, she's been having some issues at her job. And I'm like, oh, why don't you just quit like, but it's different. It's different for other industries, they don't have as much power as we do over like, because we're in higher demand and stuff like that. So I think about these things a lot. And I don't have a good response to that. I just know that it's a thing. And it should be considered.

CW Yeah, I'm hoping that it leads to other industries feeling empowered and stuff. And yeah, hiring more people, and just less time and that sort of thing. I'm in this one discord community where there's actually a teacher, and he is trying to break into the tech industry. And then there was another former teacher, and she already did. And watching their discussion was fascinating. Because she was saying, I love teaching kids, I love being a part of this. But it was so mentally draining that I just couldn't handle it anymore. And I'm being able to be paid triple what I was making as a teacher for a more flexible life. And I now go teach after school programs because I still want to be involved in their lives. But I have to take care of myself. And the guy who's trying to break into the industry, he was saying, yeah, I feel guilty, because I want to be there for the kids. But I can't do this anymore. And the phrase that was being passed around was you can't set yourself on fire to keep others warm. They were all just talking about how like tech is their way out of the mental space where they're in. And I'm hoping that with all of these shifts that are happening in the world, in various industries and stuff that maybe, I don't even know how to how to phrase it, maybe there's a way where we can kind of influence other industries to be better at this.

RD I think that there'll be a sort of knock on effect of all these people leaving these other industries to go to tech, these other industries having to kind of get their their stuff together, and do better.


BP Alright, everybody, thank you so much for listening. As always, we will end the show thanking the winner of a lifeboat badge, someone who came on Stack Overflow, found a question with a score of negative three or less and gave it an answer. Now that question has a score of three or more and that answer has a score of 20 or more. So thank you to Boomer, awarded 32 minutes ago: 'how to align an anchor to the right.' Alright, if you need to know we have the right answer for you. I am Ben Popper. I'm the director of content here at Stack Overflow. You can always find me on Twitter @BenPopper, email us podcast@StackOverflow. And yeah, if you like the show, leave us a rating and a review or if you have suggestions for stuff you want us to discuss, send them in or if you have a story about the great resignation you want to share with us, send it our way.

RD I'm Ryan Donovan, I edit the blog here at Stack Overflow. You can find me on Twitter at @RThorDonovan. And if you have a great idea for a blog post, please send it to me at

CF And I'm Ceora Ford. I'm a developer advocate at Apollo GraphQL. You can find me on Twitter. My username there is @Ceeroro_.

CW I'm Cassidy Williams I'm a floating vapor in the wind, you can find me @cassidoo on most things.

BP Alright, and we got an email, I forgot to say we got an email from bogey, I want to try to shout out fans when they send us stuff. So Bogey says, Ryan, your mic seems to be better. She hears some improvement. She'd like us to have some episodes in the future on Adobe Dreamweaver. Macromedia Flash, creating and WordPress or other CMS based sites. Can you be a developer if that's all you do, or how to choose a Linux distro? Alright, we will consider these topics for future.

CW Man, Macromedia Flash. Blast to the past. 

BP Alright everybody, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you soon. 

CF See you!

RD Bye!

[outro music]