The Stack Overflow Podcast

Embracing ambiguity in software with one of YouTube’s UX engineers

Episode Summary

The home team sits down with Mattaniah Aytenfsu, a UX Engineer at YouTube, up-and-coming TikTok influencer, and creative technologist. They talk about our unfortunate tendency to divide kids into “science kids” and “art kids,” the difference between being a software engineer and a UX engineer, and why it’s important to be gracious with yourself when you lose focus on a project.

Episode Notes

Read a profile of Mattaniah on People of Color in Tech (POCIT) here.

Connect with Mattaniah on LinkedIn or follow her on TikTok.

Who remembers Vine??

This week’s tech recs: Cassidy recommends her Hifiman headphones. Ben recommends his hybrid RAV4 (42 miles on the battery alone). Matt recommends Spline, a design app for 3D web experiences. Ceora’s recommendation is a clear phone case from Five Below, perfect for displaying a photo of your favorite K-pop idol (or, you know, your dog).

Plus, Mattaniah and the team get gushy about “incredible,” “joyful,” “super accessible” creative code educator Daniel Shiffman.

This week’s Lifeboat badge goes to user Maulik Hirani for their answer to New Google Places Autocomplete and its pricing.

Episode Transcription

Mattaniah Aytenfsu But then once I actually switched over from software engineering to UX engineering at my day job, I think that's what really showed me that there are very tangible ways to take my artistic or my design inclinations and put it into computer code. So it was something I kind of fell into, I’d never really had like a set career plan. And when I get people asking me on TikTok, like, "Oh, how do you get this job?" Or, "How did you combine these two?" It's honestly just me messing up and then trying new things and trying to combine things. And I mess up so much, I don't post it as much but I'm trying to post it to be completely transparent with my process and how I figure things out.

[intro music plays]

Ben Popper Alright, everybody. Accusoft is a software development company specializing in document processing, conversion, and automation solutions. From out of the box and configurable applications to APIs and SDKs, Accusoft helps developers solve their document workflow challenges while saving hours of development time. Learn more at 

Ceora Ford Welcome everyone to the Stack Overflow Podcast. I'm one of your hosts today, my name is Ceora Ford. I'm going to give my co-hosts a chance to introduce themselves as well, and I'm very excited for this episode because we have a really exciting, interesting, awesome, fantastic guest and I'll get to her intro really soon, but I'll kick it off to my co-hosts first. 

Cassidy Williams I'm Cassidy Williams. What is my title? I always mess it up. Just– I'm Cassidy, and I like to make memes on the internet. 

BP I am Ben Popper. I'm the Director of Content here at Stack Overflow, and I'll pass the hat to my colleague, Matt.

Matt Kiernander Hi, I'm Matt. I'm a Technical Advocate here at Stack Overflow. I just want to mention how excited we are today. I think Ceora and I were on a call yesterday and I believe I fist pumped when she was like, "Guess who we've got on the podcast tomorrow." 

CF Since it seems like everyone here is super excited, I'm going to give you a chance to introduce yourself and give us like a brief elevator pitch of who you are and what you do. 

MA Hello. I'm super excited to be here today. Thank you for having me. My name is Mattaniah, Mattaniah Aytenfsu. I am a UX Engineer at YouTube. I work on the art department there, so I really focus on building out YouTube's brand design and visual identity across all of our products and marketing. But in my free time, I kind of sell myself as like an artist, designer, engineer, creative technologist, there's so many different synonyms for it, so I think I'm all over the place. But I think creative technologist is the best umbrella for all of the terms. So I do a lot of creating art with code and just trying to find different ways to combine all my fragmented hobbies into somehow combining it into a project that incorporates code, just because I kind of like finding eccentric things and pulling things together and tying knots and stuff. So yeah, that's a little bit about me. 

CF Awesome. Okay. So I'm going to take it back a little bit. I want to hear what got you started coding? What was your first experience with software engineering, with computer coding? And what led you to where you are today?

MA Yeah, for sure. So actually my first exposure to computer science and any form of coding was in college. I had no idea what coding was until I took my first CS class my freshman year. I initially started off as I think a systems engineering major, but then I nearly failed my first physics class first semester of college.

CW Didn't we all?

MA Yeah, physics is so hard, I can't do it. So that quickly humbled me and showed me that maybe harder engineering or like actual systems engineering wasn't for me. My university didn't have too many STEM programs, so I was just looking through the list of different things that were offered, and computer science seemed to be interesting to me. So I took my first course and I really enjoyed that CS 101 class, and from there I just took the jump and took the risk and majored in it. And I think it worked out. I think I'm happy with the result of how it turned out.

CF Yeah! I think we can all agree with that. 

MA So yeah, in university I majored, like I said, in computer science, but I minored in graphic design. And so I think that that's a bit where my artistic inclination comes from. And I think that's where I wanted to combine the two. But when I was in college I actually never really combined the two. They always lived pretty separate. I had computer science or software engineering internships, and I had purely graphic design internships, but nothing that really combined the two. That was something that really I came into post-grad, so it was kind of an interesting route. 

CF Yeah. I feel like I'm in that spot now where I have the two interests but I haven't figured out a good way to combine the two. So I think, Matt, you're going to ask a question that might help me get some advice on how to do that. I feel like you are, I can sense it. 

MK Well, this is something that I struggled with my whole life. Because I feel like as kids you're kind of put into a box a little bit. You're the science kid or you're the art kid, and it kind of gave the assumption that you were good at one and therefore you couldn't be good at the other. And I was always under the assumption that if I like programming, I like technical stuff, I'd never be able to do both at the same time. So I'm super curious from your perspective, how you kind of rationalized it in your head. Did you think that moving forward with your career, I'm either going to be a computer scientist or an artist, or did you always want to try and find a way to blend those two together into what you're doing professionally?

MA Yeah. I also really had that same struggle growing up. I was really involved in musical theater and different music things when I was a kid, but I also really loved math. But I was like, "Okay, if I'm good at math then I should probably do a STEM field, they make pretty good money." So I think that was sort of why I got into the field if I'm being completely honest. I didn't have that sort of backstory that most software engineers have. Like, "I was coding since the age of 12 and blah, blah, blah." I was just like, "Okay, this seems aligned with my interests of problem solving and such." So I think that's why I went into it. But as for your actual question, yeah, I don't really know. I think I pursued engineering just because it seemed like a stable job option, and I liked the process of breaking down a problem and solving it in little pieces. But at the same time, I was doing these creative things on the side, and so I didn't really have a plan, if I'm being completely honest, of how I was going to mesh the two. It was just like, "Okay, well, I think it's good to have hobbies. I think I'll keep this as a hobby." But then once I actually switched over from software engineering to UX engineering at my day job, I think that's what really showed me that there are very tangible ways to take my artistic or my design inclinations and put it into computer code. So it was something I kind of fell into. I never really had like a set career plan. And when I get people asking me on TikTok, like, "How do you get this job?" Or, "How did you combine these two?" It's honestly just me messing up and then trying new things and trying to combine things. And I mess up so much, I don't post it as much, but I'm trying to post it to be completely transparent with my process and how I figure things out. But yeah, I kind of just stumbled into it. I think it was just that I naturally like having lots of different things that I like to do, like different hobbies. And so art was a hobby that's now slowly becoming a career, which I'm super excited about. 

CF Yeah. You mentioned that you made the transition from being a software engineer to being a UX engineer, and UX engineering has more of the artistic side of things. What has that transition been like? 

MA So I think the transition for me was pretty smooth, just because I did have that design experience in college. So I kind of knew different design language things, like typography, color, hierarchy, and all these sort of design buzzwords that get thrown around. And so I think that transition was pretty seamless for me. But I think the main difference between my experience as a software engineer and my experience as a UX engineer is really learning how to handle ambiguity, and how to think at a higher level. It might also have to do with that when I was a software engineer, I was pretty junior in the field. I'm three years into my career now, so I'm still pretty junior. But my first year and a half was software engineering and now the other half was UX. So I think when I was a software engineer, it was a lot of just getting things handed to me and being like, "Okay, this is exactly how it needs to be done. It's very scoped out. Now just build it." Which can be kind of nice at times to not have to think too much. 

CW There's pros and cons of that. 

MA Yeah. I still appreciate that type of work. But I think, now as a UX engineer, I'm being pulled in very early into the design process to the ideation phase of a feature. Where it's like, "We don't have any mocks. We don't have any actual visual designers in the room. We're just thinking about what we can build to make this better." And so, kind of stepping away from the actual implementation into the higher level thinking has been an adjustment that I'm still learning, but I'm really enjoying that creative director role that I'm now stepping into. 

BP That's so cool. Did you have a mentor or a peer who kind of took you in that direction? A specific project? That sounds more like a process of self discovery through trial and error.

MA Yeah, I think it was definitely self discovery. When I first started at Google, I was in a rotational program for a year, and on my second rotation I worked with a UX engineer. And what he was doing was building a lot of prototypes, and different early phase ideas, and actually writing the code for it and sending it to me, and sending it to the rest of the software engineering team so we can validate it. And I really liked that process of what he was doing, as opposed to what I would have to do which is implement the actual hard stuff, and doing all the testing and all the middleware and connecting all the dots. Which is still fun, but I think I was a lot more excited by the idea of just experimenting. 

BP Way more fun to come up with ideas than make them work. 

MA Yeah, execution is hard sometimes. 

BP For people who don't know, can you just describe a little bit of what a rotational program looks like? 

MA Yeah. I was in the Google engineering residency program. It was a one-year program for college new grads. And so for the first I think two or three months of the program when we first started at Google, it honestly felt a lot like college. We were taking these classes together in a big cohort and we were doing group projects, and sort of learning how to be an engineer at Google and how to make that transition. And it was honestly so helpful for my transition into being a full-time engineer, just because they don't teach you how to function as a software engineer in college. They teach you like theory of how to do things but not the actual day-to-day life of an engineer. And so that's what the first two months were about, just kind of getting those soft skills and understanding the different technologies and tools that Google uses. And Google has so many proprietary tools that are specific to Google, so it's not something you can prepare before you join the workforce. So it was a lot of just learning that, and then from there, for the rest of the year, we did two rotations on different teams. And my first rotation was four months, each rotation was about four months long. My first rotation was on the YouTube main app web team, which is a long way to say front end for on your computer. So I was doing front end development for, and then for my second rotation I was also on a front end team, but I was on Google Cloud Platform. So I was working on like the search bar there.

CW I love when companies do rotational programs, and you typically only see it at the really big ones that can afford to engineers hop around.

CF I didn't know it was a thing.

CW It's amazing. I did one at Microsoft way back in the day. Oh my gosh, it's 10 years ago now, I'm so old, it's wild. But I've seen quite a few companies do it, and I remember I interned at Intuit in Silicon Valley way back in the day, and all of the new grads who ended up going on full-time also did a rotational. And it was kind of like what you just said, where you spend four to six months on a particular team and you can try out different styles of roles and stuff. I think it's such a smart thing to do because not only do you get to get help on certain teams and kind of get people who might be really eager and interested in what you're doing, but also if you find a really good fit on your rotation then you're more likely to stay in that role. And it's such good training for you to understand systems really well, too. It's just so smart all around. I think more companies should do it. 

BP Yeah. I had never heard of it before today, really. It's fascinating. And it makes a lot of sense for a big company because if you do end up in a certain department or on a certain product, it's a lot harder to see everything else the way it might be at a startup where you're in a room with 30 people and you can kind of see what everybody's doing, or everybody has to pitch in on every project in some way. You can be very focused, down to working on a few pixels on a few sliders or whatever, and if that's not your thing you don't want to be stuck there. 

CF So, I'm interested in hearing then, where did your desire to create content online for other people to view come from and how did that process look? I want to hear more about the process of becoming an independent creator and how you chose TikTok as your platform and how you view using it as your platform in the future.

MA I would honestly say I'm an accidental creator. At the beginning of the pandemic in 2020 I just downloaded TikTok like most people in March, just because I wanted a thing to do. So when I initially started making content on TikTok a lot of it was just like silly little TikToks and jokes, nothing serious. I was just posting whatever I felt like and I didn't really have a rhyme and reason. And then I was telling a friend of mine, just seeing the type of content that went viral on TikTok, I was like, "I think I could become TikTok famous if I really tried," but I was joking around. And so I was like, "You know, let me try to take it a little bit more seriously." So I shifted away from posting just the regular trash that I was posting, and I posted a TikTok that went over my experience being an intern at NASA, just sort of showing different videos and clips and stuff of that, and that went pretty viral. And I was like, "Oh, okay. Wow, people are actually interested in the work that I do. Maybe I can kind of shift it to that." So I think that's what sort of sparked me to share my work online a bit more, and show the process and the creative design and the actual implementation of things. So like I said, it was a very accidental thing. I want to try to make the shift to maybe moving to YouTube. I think it makes sense, I work at YouTube. 

CW I was going to bring that up.

MA It's funny. I have to like come out as a TikToker to my team at YouTube, which I actually haven't done yet so we'll see how that turns out. I think some people already know about it. I've talked to some people about it but not everyone. 

CF Yeah, that's pretty funny. 

BP I mean, yeah. TikTok is canon at this point. You can look at Reels or YouTube Shorts and like 50% of them are just copied from TikTok. So it's okay. 

MA Absolutely. Yeah, TikTok is definitely driving internet culture right now. It's fun to sort of see it all pan out and see everything trickle down to other platforms, like you said. 

CF Yeah. Plus I think the cool thing about TikTok, because of all the social media platforms out there, it's probably the newest, if I can say that. And I think as of right now the expectation for quality of content is still fairly low. Sometimes I'll see TikToks where people are like in their bed in their pajamas just talking. If you want to post a YouTube video, it has to be a little bit more polished because people expect a certain level of quality. Even with Instagram, like your Instagram pictures, people are going to expect them to be edited and like perfect and all that kind of stuff. So that's one of the reasons why TikTok is so appealing to me is because if you want to start creating content, it's pretty easy to do so. You don't have to have a fancy camera and editing skills and all that kind of stuff. It's easy to do all that in-app. 

BP Does anybody here remember Vine? Anybody here make any Vines? 

CF Yes!

CW Heck yeah! 

BP Really a shame Twitter bought and killed that. Because that basically was TikTok. It was like, “This is a place just to have fun. Do some dances, do some jokes. Six seconds or less.”

CF That was so much fun. 

BP Vine was so much fun. I was working at DJI after I left The Verge, and that was the first like Chinese technology company that had become the global leader. They were like far and away number one for what they did, their category, consumer drones or whatever. And so I met some people at the office and they all had this app and they were like, "This app is so big in China!" And I was like, "Oh yeah, it looks like Vine." And then like six months later they renamed it to TikTok and I was like, "Oh, I should be working there instead." Next time. 

CW Yeah, it was good. It was before. I remember before TikTok rebranded actually when it was still, I accidentally ran into a very famous person at the airport. And I didn't realize that she was a big deal, but people were surrounding her and asking for selfies and stuff. And I was like, "Who is this person? I've never seen them, ever." And she ended up just in front of me in line and I was just like, "So why are people taking pictures of you?" And she was just like, "Oh, well, I'm really good at lip syncing and I'm on this app"

BP Wait. I need to correct the history here. So Douyin's opinion was that China had like a TikTok and then they bought, and then the merger of those two things blew up. There was a Chinese version called something and then there was And was amazing, but also so annoying because it was only lip syncing, and it was like, "You're so famous and you literally do nothing."

CW And that was the thing. She was saying, "Yeah, I'm really good at lip syncing and I have 8 million followers." And I was like, "Well, good for you. You get 'em, sport." I didn't even know what to say so I just got on the plane.

BP "Alright, you're twelve. You deserve it." 

CW I know, but then later when TikTok was a thing and I was starting to use it, it was just before the pandemic in 2019, I remember scrolling around and I saw her and I was like, "Oh! That's the girl at the airport!" And low and behold, yeah millions of followers and she was lip syncing. So there you go.

BP Let me transition us from that. When you talk about UX, can you clarify what that involves? Because for me, sometimes that means a little bit of front end, sometimes it means a little bit of web design. Like in your mind, what you like to do, but also like your day to day, what does that involve?

MA Yeah, so UX is mostly just like being a user experience specialist. So UX engineers have the skillset of a front end engineer, but with the working knowledge of sort of UX design principles. So, less of actually building out production features, although some UX engineers still work on production-facing teams. But our work essentially steers away from that middleware layer between front end and back end and the actual implementation and testing, and mostly focuses on the design and UI component layer. So a lot of UXE work really focuses on building design systems for companies. So like, defining a design language, like I said, the color, typography, the way spacing works and such, and then building a component library for front end engineers and just normal engineers to use in their day-to-day work, and then also maintaining a style guide. One of the main projects I work on is maintaining our internal style guide for basically all of YouTube's things. So that focuses on UX components and also just how to use the logo in different contexts and just different things like how to use language properly when you're writing copy for a product or things like that. So our site really covers a lot of different things and so I think just by maintaining the site and building out new pages I learned so much about that, which I really do love. And I think that's one of my favorite things about being a UX engineer is just the variability in your day to day. Like some months I'm just completely coding, I'm not really doing anything but coding. But then these past two months for example, I probably sent out maybe two or three PRs, or pull requests. I've just mostly been focusing on design, so doing visual design, or being in these sort of meetings that really focus on feature ideation and those early phases like I mentioned before. So I think I really do love the flexibility that you have being a UX engineer. You can kind of jump from different parts in the process, depending on what project you're on. 

BP Very cool. 

MK I'm really curious as well. So for those people who are already pure engineers or they're pure graphic design, what kind of advice would you give for those wanting to move into user experience? Are there any tips or any workflows? Because there's no degree for UX engineering at the moment, there is computer science with a minor in design. So what kind of advice would you give those? 

MA Yeah, I think that's definitely a good way to say it. There's no degree for it yet. It's a pretty niche role, which is why I sometimes get wary when younger people ask me, like, "How do I become a UX engineer?" There's not too many job positions that have the UXE title to it. But if you're looking to make a switch, if you're already in one of those fields, I think it's a lot easier, as opposed to really trying to focus on niching down very early on. If you're a designer I think the main things would just be to try to learn the base coding concepts. So like, what a variable is, what a for-loop is, all these sort of base things. And I think I might be biased just because I'm a web developer, but HTML, CSS, and JavaScript go a very long way. Even if you're prototyping for an Android app– 

BP Those aren't real programming languages. 

CW Stop it, Ben. No! 

BP Sorry, we just had a whole episode on this. I just had to say that.

MA "You can't write a script with HTML!" But it's still like building the structure and I think it's a good introduction for designers to step into, just because you don't really need to know C++ if you're a graphic designer. 

CF Yeah, let's be real. 

MA As for an engineer moving into UXE, I think it might be a little bit simpler because you already have the toolkit to build prototypes and build all these things and build out the actual ideas. So I would say if an engineer is looking to make the switch to UX, just really try to understand and maybe even take a course, or watch a couple YouTube videos about what makes good design, and really those core design fundamentals of like how different things on a page interact with each other. What is your eye drawn to when you first look at a page? Is that the correct thing that you want your eye to be drawn to when you first look at a page? And just sort of understanding all these sort of design language things, and then from there, just a lot of experimentation. I think that's my favorite word to use, but a lot of just playing around and trying to design your own apps, even if it's nothing that you actually execute on. Just sort of taking these core concepts that you're learning and trying to build your own thing with it even if it's just building out mocks. And if you're a software engineer you could probably build out the actual execution of it. So just trying to learn by doing is I think the best advice that I can give.

CF Yeah, learning by doing has literally carried me through my whole entire career thus far so I'm a huge proponent of that idea. The question I want to ask you too is, you have a really robust, interesting, fulfilling career, and you also create your own side projects, and you also are a content creator. How do you manage doing all of that?

MA I want to start off by saying that my sleep schedule is in shambles, so I may not be the best person to ask. It's hard, it's very hard, and it's something I'm still trying to learn to balance right now. I think I have to reprioritize some things I think right now. I'm taking on a bigger responsibility at work and so I'm prioritizing my day job just because that's what gets the bills paid. And I think from there, I'm actually focusing on my personal projects and I'm putting content creation at the bottom of the barrel even though I do love it. But I'm trying to focus on building out things that I think can help me make a career shift in the future if I want to do that. Because I think I'm starting to realize that even though I love software engineering, I love the actual act of coding, I'm realizing that I maybe don't want to be doing coding for product tech for the rest of my life. I think I'm more interested in stepping into these different artistic spaces and bringing a technical perspective to those spaces, whether it be more art or fashion, or just different things like that. So I think that's where I'm trying to make that shift and that's how I'm prioritizing my personal projects. I think the main thing that I do to balance my personal projects is I try to be gracious with my attention span. I think I have a very short attention span, I get easily bored by things. My 3D printer is an example. I think that's a superpower in the same way. It just shows that you're interested in a lot of things and sometimes you can find different points to connect by you being so distracted and having 20 million side projects at the same time. And so I think that's been like my fatal flaw, but also like my superpower in a way, just me constantly starting projects and leaving them in the corner of my room collecting dust for literally a year. The painting that I made into an instrument was something that was collecting dust in the corner of my room for a year and then I picked it back up and then I finished it. And then once I learned something new with how to create synthesizers with code then I connected those. And so I think that is a very good example of being gracious with yourself when you get distracted by things and knowing that especially if it's a personal project, you don't necessarily always have a deadline. I view it as a way to learn as opposed to like, "I need to get this done and I need to show it to the world." I think I'm just trying to take it from a slower, more gradual, iterative approach.

CF It's actually really inspiring to hear you say that because I have so many projects that I've started over the past like year and a half that I haven't finished and I always feel bad about it. But now I'm just going to repeat what you just said and just listen to that on repeat, especially as soon as this episode comes out so I don't feel bad about it anymore. But, Mattaniah, it was great getting to hear some of your experience. I'm looking forward to your future TikToks because now I'm a big fan and I'm sure most of our listeners will be too once they check you out there. Before we wrap up our episode officially, we're going to do some tech recs. So, I'm going to pass it off to my co-hosts to see if you guys have any recommendations for any tech things that you've been enjoying lately. 

CW I got new headphones and I'm wearing them right now and they're pretty fun. They're HIFIMAN HE-R7DX headphones. 

CF That's a long name. 

MK The HIFIMANs are sick.

CW Yeah. They're nice. And so I had HIFIMANs before, I like this brand in general. But typically they do open-back headphones where it's not noise canceling at all, you can hear the room around you. Which is nice because I get scared easily and my husband will sneak up on me so I can hear him coming. But these ones are closed-back and so I am much more afraid. But anyway, they're really comfy headphones and I like them particularly because I wear glasses and they don't squeeze my brain with the glasses, and so I recommend them. 

BP Yes, I know the feeling. Very cool. I want to shout out my car, which I have always liked but I like even more now that gas costs $5 a gallon where I am. I drive a RAV4 plug-in and I get 42 miles on the battery alone. So I have not filled up on gas in over a month just driving with the battery. But I can drive on gas if I need to go really far. So shout out to the plug-in hybrids of the world. 

CW Ben, I've been wanting that car and can't find it anywhere. 

BP Oh, yeah, no you can't find it. Okay, so that is kind of a weak rec because they're not in stock. 

CW Dang it, Ben!

BP But if you get the chance, I recommend. I leased mine and I save nearly as much money on gas bills as I pay for the lease, so it feels like it all comes out in the wash. 

MK Keeping on the theme of creative coding, there's an app called Spline. It's a web-based 3D tool basically and it's absolutely fantastic. They just launched their beta. I've been following it for a while. You can do some really cool animations and rendering and all sorts of crazy stuff on it. And I think the team there have done a really good job. So Spline is going to be my recommendation for today.

CF Okay. My recommendation is kind of embarrassing compared to everyone else's, but it's the most affordable. So I recently got a clear phone case from Five Below. Normally I hate phone cases from Five Below because they don't do anything for me, but not to go on a K-pop tangent– 

CW I knew it was going to be K-pop. It had to be. We were missing it in this episode. 

CF K-pop albums come with a photo card of whoever one of the members of the group is. And I have a photo card for my favorite member of this one group who I'm absolutely in love with. And I have it in the back of my phone case. I'm not going to show it to the camera because it's kind of embarrassing, but that's why I love my little clear phone case. So that's my tech rec for the day. 

MA I don't think I have one. 

MK I do have a request, though, as well. Just because, for anyone looking to get into creating what you do, which is like, you're marrying code and art and doing these weird things with analog mixes and CRTVs and all this crazy stuff. Do you have any like communities or kind of like entry points into tinkering like that that you'd want to point anyone to? 

MA Yeah, I think p5.js and just The Processing Foundation as a whole is a great resource to get into. I've learned so much just from the online tutorials that the coding training makes, the coding treatment. Daniel Shiffman is incredible! He's the best educator, honestly. I've never had a computer science tutorial make me laugh. It's just so joyful and the way that he teaches is great and super accessible, so, The Processing Foundation just as a whole, big fan, big fan.

BP Awesome. Well, we'll put that in the tech recs and we also had like an eight part series last year from the folks over at Codecademy about p5.js so I'll throw that in the show notes as well.

[music plays]

BP We are going to shout out the winner of a lifeboat badge. Awarded 21 hours ago to Maulik Hirani, "New Google Places Autocomplete and its pricing." If you want to know what it costs, we have the knowledge for you. Alright, everybody. We are going to say goodbye. I am Ben Popper, the Director of Content here at Stack Overflow. You can always find me on Twitter @BenPopper, although really I am off social media, but DM me there and it shows up in my email. You can always hit us up, if you have questions or suggestions. And if you like the show, leave us a rating and a review. It really helps. 

CF My name is Ceora Ford. I'm a Developer Advocate at ApolloGraphQL. You can find me mainly on Twitter. My username there is @Ceeoreo_. 

CW My name is Cassidy Williams. I'm Head of Developer Experience and Education at Remote. I almost said my job title from 2018. Oh my gosh. You can find me @Cassidoo on most things. 

MK Hey, everyone. My name is Matt Kiernander. I'm a Technical Advocate here at Stack Overflow. You can find me online in most of the places @MattKander. 

MA Hi! I'm Mattaniah Aytenfsu. I am a UX Engineer at YouTube, and you can find me on basically all social platforms @Muhtanya.

[outro music plays]